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[Music]

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greetings friends of astrobiology

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welcome to a brand-new episode of ask an

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astrobiologist Asher we celebrate

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science and celebrate scientists my name

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is Sanjay zoom and this program is made

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possible by contributions from the NASA

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Astrobiology program LC the earth Life

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Science Institute at Tokyo Tech and a

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non profit blue marble space today we

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are extremely lucky to welcome back to

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stay canet although she's never really

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left dr. Sarah Mary Walker she's a

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co-founder of our network back in 2011

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she's also an assistant professor at the

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school of Earth and space exploration at

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the Arizona State University in the

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United States and this goes on the

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deputy director of the Beyond Center for

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fundamental concepts in science Sarah

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welcome Sanjay I'm super excited to be

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here and talk with everyone today

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before we start though it's time for a

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monthly background quiz which I know

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you're all excited about last month we

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had a wonderful landscape of a

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terrifying planets terrifying and

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beautiful Mike if you could put it up

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and I'm sure many of you recognized the

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surface of the planet Venus so this is

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actually only able to be measured using

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radar which was obtained by the Magellan

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spacecraft it is spacious craft in 1990

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and because the atmosphere is so thick

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only radar can reach the surface and the

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color is actually deduced from the

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Venera landers which are Russian Landers

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who made it to the surface I think a

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decade a few years before but 1986 and

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the Landers lasted an hour or two max

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because the atmosphere is so thick

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there's so much co2 the greenhouse is

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terrible and so the Machine essentially

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died very quickly and so shout out to

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Jaime Cordova congratulations for you

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guests er you

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right and you are going to get all six

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of the astrobiology graphic novel which

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are really fun way to discover the

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discipline and so please reach out to us

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via Twitter or other means and we'll get

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your address and send those to you so

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congratulations and so next month though

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we'll have to you'll have to be guessing

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what is my background today so make sure

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you use hashtag ask Esther bio and use

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it also today to ask your questions for

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dr. Walker and if you're on cigarettes

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just use the chat directly so with that

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Sarah yay I'm so excited that you're

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here I know you're very busy so I'm very

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grateful that you took the time to chat

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with us today what we like to do first

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is get to know you a little bit before

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talking about the incredible science

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that you do and so like we like to do in

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the show is turn back the wheels of time

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a little bit and wonder if you could

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share perhaps a story when you were

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young that kind of led you to become a

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scientist today I was in college the

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back story but both my parents so my dad

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the hairstylist and my mom deals in

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antiques

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so I actually grew up on a really

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artistic household and they were both

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enthusiastic about science but not

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really like thinking scientifically and

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so I I went to Community College for my

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first two years of college and I took

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all the science classes I could my first

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year and just like fell in love with

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physics and so I remember coming home

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from school and telling everyone I was

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going to be a theoretical physicist when

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I grew up and then looking at me like I

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was had two heads and nobody really

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believed me at the time but I just made

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the decision and I I was so excited

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about it and so I remember you know

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being 18 and starting to read things

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like I've heard me and Dirac from like

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you know and getting rid of my Seventeen

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transition but the thing that's been

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interesting for me about being a

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scientist is I feel like that's my

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creative outlet so I didn't really lose

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sort of like the creativity and the

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artistic things that that my family

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really tried to cultivate as a child I

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just used them to try to create new ways

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of understanding the world and so

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really become my creative outlets so use

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your artistic background to help you

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kind of generate new ideas for studying

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the concepts of the origin of life which

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we'll talk in a bit but you know what

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theoretical physics is quite different

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from studying yards you know life from a

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broad perspective but we know it's quite

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different but perhaps you can tell us

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how you're interested in the origin of

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life and astrobiology in particular got

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got on words for two years at a

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community college and I really just sit

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there and then I ended up going which we

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didn't cross paths there but but and I

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majored in physics and I was doing

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research in that group that did

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experimental particle physics but I

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really wanted to do Siri because the

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thing that really got me excited about

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physics in the first place was that we

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could describe the world using

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mathematics and in fact that we could

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predict things that we don't even

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understand if they exist yet and so that

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that to me was really the most beautiful

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and fascinating thing about doing

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physics and I'm so I really wanted to be

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a theorist and so when I was looking for

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grad schools I was looking for places I

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could do like fundamental physics like

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early universe cosmology theory or

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particle physics and I ended up going to

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grad school at Dartmouth College and

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when I started working there my PhD

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advisor it was kind of sort of a broad

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thinker and has focused most of his

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career on an early universe that started

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getting interested in astrobiology

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around the time I started working with

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him and I didn't even know what

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astrobiology was so he's like trying to

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convince me work on this subject and I'm

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like I've never even heard of this

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before

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okay and so I actually what I ended up

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doing was I started working on projects

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in astrobiology but in parallel doing

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some cosmology and I kept thinking that

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I was gonna really develop the cosmology

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into my thesis and the astrobiology was

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just something I was doing in the short

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term but it ended up being a total

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reversal and and part of that happened

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because I was working on origins of life

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and I really realized that this was like

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a place where we really didn't have any

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fundamental conceptual understanding of

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the problem or how to ask the right

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questions about the problem and it was a

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place I saw physics really being able to

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contribute to some understanding

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fundamental principles or universal

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principles for life in the universe and

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that got me really excited because the

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whole reason I wanted to be a physicist

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in the first place was I was like in

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love with these major scientific

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revolutions and advances in our

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understanding like quantum mechanics or

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generality that really changed

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everything about how we think and so the

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idea that we could have a theory of life

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and it might equally change everything

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about how we think is to me just so

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fascinating so I don't think that I

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really like ideologically my interests

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didn't change watch us is that the

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questions evolved and and I just found

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this area of astrobiology to be so rich

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for exploration and creativity and

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contributing new ideas so you found a

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community of people of like-minded

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dividuals who are interested in the

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origin of life but coming at it from a

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friend that's right that's kind of what

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God's saying that going I'm so do you

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interact with scientists from a bunch of

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different disciplines to help you

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advance your science today yeah I do

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so so actually one of the reasons I

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really fell in love with astrobiology in

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particular when I was a grad student was

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because of the sense of community and

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the exposure to people from all kinds of

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different disciplines and and I also

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really liked that about being at ASU cuz

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it's a really unique place like the

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school earth and space exploration and

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I'm in a department with geologists and

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astrophysicists and I'm really neither

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of those things but somehow still fit in

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a mix of people so I I do a lot of work

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in complex systems science which is very

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broad and interdisciplinary and that's

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more like a mathematical set of tools so

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I interact a lot with complexity

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scientists who are thinking about life I

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interact a lot with people that think

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about exoplanets ob1 actually

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astrophysics a lot of theoretical

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physicists a lot of biologists a lot of

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chemists for original life stuff

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sometimes computer scientists so it's

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pretty much if there is a discipline

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that exists I think I have worked with

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somebody you'll push is I think the best

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thing about philosophers it's it's so

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incredibly broad this question of

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understanding life I think it really it

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requires involving as breadth of

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expertise as you possibly can so during

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your universe

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career is wondering if you've benefitted

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from from person you could look up to

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like mentors who helped you guide

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through the the most what must have been

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quite a non-linear thought process of

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going through school that you had yeah

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it was not linear at the time but i'm

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like looking at it backwards i feel like

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there was actually like a clear

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trajectory but yeah so so mentors are

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incredibly important and particular have

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adventures that are really supportive

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and are willing to you know let you

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explore the questions that you're most

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passionate about and really go after

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them and so for me i was incredibly

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lucky through my graduate education my

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undergrad also i had a really good

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mentor in undergrad and my graduate

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education and my postdocs will have

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really good mentors that were really

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encouraging of me asking really deep

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fundamental questions and in particular

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one person who's inspired me a lot was

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my postdoc advisor here is used paul

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davies because he encouraged me like no

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one else to really go after the really

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hard questions and i think that's a

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really important thing to instill on

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early career researchers because

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oftentimes when you're at the earliest

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stages in your career have the most

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creativity and the innovative ideas but

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you're often encouraged not to go after

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those things and to be safe and to save

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your career whereas you might have the

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most potential for impact if you you

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actually go after those things so i

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think the experience of having a mentor

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who was enthusiastic for me really going

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after the really tough question it's

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really changed everything about what I

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could accomplish in my career and how I

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was going after things it's also

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probably quite a bit more rewarding to

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take a bit more risks in your research

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right I think so for me it's more

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personally rewarding but it is scary I

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mean so so there's always this challenge

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00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:48,250
that you have to make it in science and

276
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:50,290
obviously you're in science because you

277
00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:51,970
love it so you want to stay in it so

278
00:10:57,300 --> 00:10:53,260
it's sort of like it feels like a

279
00:10:59,100 --> 00:10:57,310
catch-22 but I think at least in my

280
00:11:00,240 --> 00:10:59,110
experience when people are like original

281
00:11:01,740 --> 00:11:00,250
and true to themselves and really go

282
00:11:03,850 --> 00:11:01,750
after the things that they they care

283
00:11:06,850 --> 00:11:03,860
about that's when their talent

284
00:11:09,550 --> 00:11:06,860
you know like added as fast where they

285
00:11:12,370 --> 00:11:09,560
like really shine so I think it's if

286
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:12,380
who's us to try to train our like crew

287
00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:13,970
people to find what their passion is and

288
00:11:19,690 --> 00:11:17,990
Paulo it really nice words for those of

289
00:11:21,699 --> 00:11:19,700
you watching don't take life too much

290
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:21,709
coasting right take the chance to take a

291
00:11:25,509 --> 00:11:23,930
few risks you'll be rewarding so in the

292
00:11:27,130 --> 00:11:25,519
decades of origin of of life research

293
00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:27,140
has been kind of two camps that have

294
00:11:30,340 --> 00:11:28,700
developed right they have been kind of

295
00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:30,350
metabolism first people which you

296
00:11:34,990 --> 00:11:32,510
describe is kind of the analog origin of

297
00:11:37,660 --> 00:11:35,000
life and genetics first origin of life

298
00:11:40,030 --> 00:11:37,670
camp which is kind of a digital origin

299
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:40,040
of life approach but you have some new

300
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:41,120
thoughts and how to think about these

301
00:11:45,460 --> 00:11:43,610
two camps merging them into a way that

302
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:45,470
that if you've published about kind of

303
00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:47,600
an algorithmic origin of life could you

304
00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:49,160
describe a little bit more more about

305
00:11:56,860 --> 00:11:54,649
what that so the so the main question

306
00:11:58,480 --> 00:11:56,870
that really drives me is with the origin

307
00:12:00,190 --> 00:11:58,490
of life question in particular is we're

308
00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:00,200
talking about life originating but we

309
00:12:02,590 --> 00:12:01,310
don't really have a clear idea of what

310
00:12:03,850 --> 00:12:02,600
we mean by life and that's very

311
00:12:06,850 --> 00:12:03,860
problematic if you want to build a

312
00:12:08,019 --> 00:12:06,860
theory for origins of life and so from

313
00:12:10,449 --> 00:12:08,029
their perspective of physics which

314
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:10,459
obviously is my training and biases the

315
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:11,690
way I'm thinking and it's always really

316
00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:13,610
good to be aware of those biases but

317
00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:15,470
from that perspective the things that

318
00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:17,360
seem most unique about living systems

319
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:19,670
are their ability to manage and process

320
00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:21,170
information or in particular to use

321
00:12:29,199 --> 00:12:25,910
information and so what I've been trying

322
00:12:31,090 --> 00:12:29,209
to think about a lot over my career is

323
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:31,100
how we might use the concept of

324
00:12:34,329 --> 00:12:32,480
information as a way to actually

325
00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:34,339
quantify the original life transition

326
00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:37,790
and how that might provide us a more

327
00:12:41,019 --> 00:12:39,350
rigorous set of mathematical tools for

328
00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:41,029
talking about life the conditions under

329
00:12:46,030 --> 00:12:43,190
which it might arise and and how likely

330
00:12:47,259 --> 00:12:46,040
life is and from that perspective it's

331
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:47,269
really nice because if you start

332
00:12:51,639 --> 00:12:49,600
thinking about like our traditional

333
00:12:53,889 --> 00:12:51,649
divisions that we have about thinking

334
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:53,899
about biology genetics or metabolism

335
00:12:58,300 --> 00:12:56,810
which are really just sort of I mean

336
00:13:00,100 --> 00:12:58,310
they are very different fundamentally

337
00:13:03,189 --> 00:13:00,110
different processes in biology but there

338
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:03,199
are also partitions that we are ways of

339
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:04,610
partitioning the world that we ascribe

340
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:06,170
to the world it's not that nature is

341
00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:07,970
necessarily has the same categories that

342
00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:13,790
we make so so I so the idea being that

343
00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:15,620
some of these things that are very

344
00:13:20,590 --> 00:13:17,510
biologically relevant like genetics and

345
00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:20,600
Tabo ISM might not be very different at

346
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:22,340
the origins because those concepts are

347
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:24,410
very biological and in particular that

348
00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:27,050
they have if you if use this language of

349
00:13:30,220 --> 00:13:28,790
thinking about information there's a

350
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:30,230
common way of describing both of them

351
00:13:32,980 --> 00:13:31,370
that becomes a very natural way of

352
00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:32,990
describing them when they're when

353
00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:34,190
they're not so different and that they

354
00:13:38,170 --> 00:13:35,830
might be two aspects for example of

355
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:38,180
information processing on being digital

356
00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:40,730
one being analog and so that's really

357
00:13:44,020 --> 00:13:42,620
kind of the idea is is to try to look

358
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:44,030
for the unifications rather than the

359
00:13:50,020 --> 00:13:47,330
divisions I guess so it's thinking about

360
00:13:52,350 --> 00:13:50,030
life as a transmitter of information

361
00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:52,360
it's how information is transferred in

362
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:54,800
what we call a living system that

363
00:14:00,280 --> 00:13:57,170
characterizes life from non-life is that

364
00:14:01,690 --> 00:14:00,290
right right right that's very

365
00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:01,700
fascinating and so that's that's a very

366
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:03,920
Universal way of thinking about like you

367
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:06,770
know when we talk about the current or

368
00:14:11,860 --> 00:14:08,570
2018 way of searching for life on other

369
00:14:13,930 --> 00:14:11,870
worlds it's a it's a very I guess it's a

370
00:14:16,060 --> 00:14:13,940
very traditional way of looking for life

371
00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:16,070
looking for life as we know it on earth

372
00:14:20,350 --> 00:14:18,110
right but it's not necessarily that life

373
00:14:21,730 --> 00:14:20,360
is earth based and so there are a couple

374
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:21,740
years ago I'm sure you know there was

375
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:23,330
the the weird life report from the

376
00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:25,040
National Academies that identify kind of

377
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:27,920
four Universal universities of life

378
00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:29,440
what were they thermodynamic equilibrium

379
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:32,240
liquid environment molecular system of

380
00:14:36,130 --> 00:14:34,250
capable of Darwinian evolution and then

381
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:36,140
an environment that can sustain covalent

382
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:38,210
bonds but you're you're doing research

383
00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:40,930
to look for other universes that any

384
00:14:44,430 --> 00:14:43,670
universality ease of life right tell us

385
00:14:49,450 --> 00:14:44,440
more about that

386
00:14:51,370 --> 00:14:49,460
okay so there's a make about in my views

387
00:14:54,370 --> 00:14:51,380
so so one of the things people people

388
00:14:56,620 --> 00:14:54,380
often before I get so kind of addressing

389
00:14:58,660 --> 00:14:56,630
your question but it's relevant and so

390
00:14:59,830 --> 00:14:58,670
there's when I talk about like the

391
00:15:01,540 --> 00:14:59,840
distinction between life and non-life

392
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:01,550
people think I'm trying to talk about

393
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:03,770
like a hard boundary between life life

394
00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:06,410
is this and not life is this but the

395
00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:08,120
actual thing that I think is happening

396
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:10,070
is that we don't understand the physics

397
00:15:14,260 --> 00:15:13,250
of information period and that if we

398
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:14,270
really want to understand how

399
00:15:18,310 --> 00:15:15,890
information operates in the physical

400
00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:18,320
world and how it how it manifests that

401
00:15:22,450 --> 00:15:20,630
the best place to study that is biology

402
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,460
and it's sort of analogy I like to make

403
00:15:28,510 --> 00:15:25,040
is if you think about gravitation as a

404
00:15:30,130 --> 00:15:28,520
physical law you might if you want to

405
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:30,140
study gravitation a really good place to

406
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:31,070
study gravitation

407
00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:32,240
limits of gravitation or what

408
00:15:36,460 --> 00:15:34,640
gravitation is capable of is to study

409
00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:36,470
black holes if you wanna study

410
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:38,120
information in the physical world and

411
00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:40,130
how information operates in physical

412
00:15:45,130 --> 00:15:42,950
reality you study life and and the laws

413
00:15:48,670 --> 00:15:45,140
of information are probably the laws of

414
00:15:50,140 --> 00:15:48,680
life and so so that's sort of my

415
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:50,150
perspective on that and then if you're

416
00:15:53,910 --> 00:15:51,770
thinking about it from that very sort of

417
00:15:57,010 --> 00:15:53,920
broad Universal perspective it opens up

418
00:15:59,230 --> 00:15:57,020
entirely new ways of thinking about life

419
00:16:00,400 --> 00:15:59,240
that aren't necessarily our traditional

420
00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:00,410
ones that we think about in astrobiology

421
00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:02,300
so for example most of the things that

422
00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:04,310
you mentioned those four criteria are

423
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:06,830
based on thinking about life as a

424
00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:10,010
property of chemical organization and we

425
00:16:13,540 --> 00:16:11,960
tend to think about life as a chemical

426
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:13,550
phenomena because life emerges from

427
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:15,170
chemistry but it might not be that life

428
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:18,710
is actually chemical in any sense and so

429
00:16:22,930 --> 00:16:20,330
what I mean by that is one of the places

430
00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:22,940
I look for inspiration most in thinking

431
00:16:26,410 --> 00:16:25,100
about organization of living systems and

432
00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:26,420
behavior of living systems is not

433
00:16:30,670 --> 00:16:29,150
necessarily chemistry but social systems

434
00:16:32,770 --> 00:16:30,680
because social systems are highly

435
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:32,780
organized there's a lot of information

436
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:34,790
and social systems that helps organize

437
00:16:41,740 --> 00:16:36,770
them and there's a lot of ways of

438
00:16:43,810 --> 00:16:41,750
understanding ourselves at that kind of

439
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:43,820
level of organization and to me that

440
00:16:48,370 --> 00:16:46,310
that system is just as much alive as a

441
00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:48,380
chemical organization inside myself it's

442
00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:50,980
just a different scale and so

443
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:54,670
understanding what properties of

444
00:16:59,470 --> 00:16:56,450
information if you want to call it that

445
00:17:01,660 --> 00:16:59,480
or organizing principles operate across

446
00:17:03,490 --> 00:17:01,670
these scales that we see in living

447
00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:03,500
systems that are common across those

448
00:17:08,290 --> 00:17:05,150
scales is probably going to be our best

449
00:17:09,660 --> 00:17:08,300
bet for identifying Universal properties

450
00:17:12,310 --> 00:17:09,670
of life that are likely to apply

451
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:12,320
elsewhere in the universe even if it's

452
00:17:16,179 --> 00:17:13,990
radically different chemistry

453
00:17:18,130 --> 00:17:16,189
fascinating so do you think there is a

454
00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:18,140
universal theory of life like there is a

455
00:17:26,980 --> 00:17:19,400
theory of gravitation

456
00:17:28,690 --> 00:17:26,990
I hope my suspicion is that there

457
00:17:30,790 --> 00:17:28,700
probably is I mean there's something

458
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:30,800
fundamentally weird about life and it's

459
00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:33,890
not it doesn't in my mind it does not

460
00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:35,750
demand a trivial explanation it demands

461
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:38,870
a profound one and I think that and and

462
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:40,310
that's just my own personal bias so

463
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:42,170
again I think that when we're thinking

464
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:43,610
about these questions especially when

465
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:44,130
there

466
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:50,400
things that you know are so intrinsic to

467
00:17:54,770 --> 00:17:51,930
understanding ourselves that we have to

468
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:54,780
be careful about our biases but but

469
00:17:58,970 --> 00:17:56,250
living systems are very weird they're

470
00:18:01,540 --> 00:17:58,980
very interesting and special it's it's

471
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:01,550
very unique that for example we have

472
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,690
scientists on earth that can understand

473
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:05,760
how the world works there's the example

474
00:18:09,740 --> 00:18:07,860
that I really like is thinking about

475
00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:09,750
quantum mechanics there's no

476
00:18:14,810 --> 00:18:12,060
evolutionary advantage to our ability to

477
00:18:17,030 --> 00:18:14,820
think to have knowledge of the laws of

478
00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:17,040
quantum mechanics none whatsoever

479
00:18:21,860 --> 00:18:19,830
yet somehow we have this deep knowledge

480
00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:21,870
we have information about the inner

481
00:18:27,230 --> 00:18:24,630
workings of reality in the scale that is

482
00:18:30,380 --> 00:18:27,240
almost completely irrelevant to our

483
00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:30,390
daily operation and those kind of things

484
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,920
you know like it's easy to sweep those

485
00:18:36,020 --> 00:18:33,120
things under the rug and say oh those

486
00:18:37,850 --> 00:18:36,030
are not important things but but they

487
00:18:44,590 --> 00:18:37,860
seem very critical to addressing these

488
00:18:46,730 --> 00:18:44,600
kind of questions so yeah I think I hope

489
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:46,740
so that would mean that there's new

490
00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:48,480
physics yet to be discovered to

491
00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:49,950
understand the theory of life right

492
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:51,780
something that was as mysterious as

493
00:18:59,300 --> 00:18:53,820
comforta mechanics thinking about it in

494
00:19:01,820 --> 00:18:59,310
the you know 18th century yes yeah

495
00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:01,830
fantastic so your research as taking

496
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:03,900
also it was the same philosophy taking

497
00:19:08,330 --> 00:19:06,330
another spin and more applied to the

498
00:19:10,370 --> 00:19:08,340
search for life on exoplanets for

499
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:10,380
example so currently we search for life

500
00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:13,200
on exoplanets we will at least by

501
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:14,940
looking at the products of biology right

502
00:19:18,260 --> 00:19:16,530
so if you look at Earth atmosphere from

503
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:18,270
far away for example you recognize an

504
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:20,880
oxidant oxygen and a reductant methane

505
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:22,290
and the fact that yeah both of them in

506
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:23,520
our atmosphere suggest that there's a

507
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:26,640
process on the surface that is actively

508
00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:28,850
you know producing those those two

509
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:31,080
chemicals that would react otherwise and

510
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:33,690
so when thinking about life on those

511
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:35,310
other planets that's kind of a strategy

512
00:19:40,580 --> 00:19:37,170
that is going to be put forward in the

513
00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:40,590
next decade or two and but you're

514
00:19:42,940 --> 00:19:41,640
thinking about it differently right

515
00:19:45,410 --> 00:19:42,950
you're thinking about it using

516
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,420
statistics as a means to infer the

517
00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:48,000
possibility of life just from observing

518
00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:51,750
what you can observe on the planet yeah

519
00:19:57,789 --> 00:19:54,030
so I've gotten really intrigued by the

520
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:57,799
exoplanet discoveries recently and look

521
00:20:01,629 --> 00:19:59,600
for life on exoplanets because of the

522
00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:01,639
issue of statistics so so one of my

523
00:20:04,479 --> 00:20:03,049
reasons is really selfish and it has

524
00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:04,489
nothing to do with wanting to discover

525
00:20:08,499 --> 00:20:06,830
life but I want like I want bounds for

526
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:08,509
theory development we don't understand

527
00:20:12,249 --> 00:20:10,850
how frequent life is so if we had some

528
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:12,259
understanding of at least the

529
00:20:15,159 --> 00:20:13,730
distribution of planets that can't

530
00:20:16,629 --> 00:20:15,169
harbor life that would be more

531
00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:16,639
information than we have our don't

532
00:20:22,509 --> 00:20:21,230
harbor life so that's sort of that that

533
00:20:24,669 --> 00:20:22,519
we need more information for

534
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:24,679
understanding life more broadly and how

535
00:20:28,269 --> 00:20:25,970
its distributed so that was my original

536
00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:28,279
kind of thinking for getting into

537
00:20:33,879 --> 00:20:31,700
exoplanet bio signature research but the

538
00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:33,889
thing that I've been working on more

539
00:20:43,419 --> 00:20:39,940
actively is actually thinking about on

540
00:20:46,889 --> 00:20:43,429
like planetary systems and how they

541
00:20:49,210 --> 00:20:46,899
organize and so when we're talking about

542
00:20:51,820 --> 00:20:49,220
biology from this kind of abstract

543
00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:51,830
perspective one of the ways that we try

544
00:20:57,460 --> 00:20:54,169
to build mathematical structures to

545
00:20:59,049 --> 00:20:57,470
describe that is by using networks so

546
00:21:02,019 --> 00:20:59,059
the familiar example actually probably

547
00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:02,029
to everyone I'm faking it is a social

548
00:21:05,349 --> 00:21:03,289
network because we're part of a social

549
00:21:07,210 --> 00:21:05,359
network being here on say Gannett and um

550
00:21:08,229 --> 00:21:07,220
and some of you that are logged in are

551
00:21:10,060 --> 00:21:08,239
probably friends with each other I'm

552
00:21:13,060 --> 00:21:10,070
sake Annette and so so you can actually

553
00:21:14,739 --> 00:21:13,070
represents a Gannett as a network where

554
00:21:16,899 --> 00:21:14,749
all the people logged in would be nodes

555
00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:16,909
and you know if they're friends with

556
00:21:19,989 --> 00:21:18,289
each other they would be connected and

557
00:21:23,229 --> 00:21:19,999
you can represent chemistry this way too

558
00:21:24,999 --> 00:21:23,239
and so what has been shown in the past

559
00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:25,009
with some preliminary analysis is that

560
00:21:31,180 --> 00:21:29,960
you actually can potentially look at the

561
00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:31,190
network structure of Earth's atmosphere

562
00:21:37,989 --> 00:21:34,609
and see that has distinct structure from

563
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:37,999
atmospheres of other planets and forces

564
00:21:41,289 --> 00:21:39,919
them so if you if you run an atmospheric

565
00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:41,299
model and then you look at the structure

566
00:21:45,399 --> 00:21:43,340
of the chemical Network in the

567
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:45,409
atmosphere they look different for Earth

568
00:21:49,479 --> 00:21:47,330
and they do from other planets and it's

569
00:21:52,539 --> 00:21:49,489
intriguing because first differences

570
00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:52,549
make it look more like the structure of

571
00:21:56,830 --> 00:21:54,799
networks and metabolism inside cells and

572
00:21:58,810 --> 00:21:56,840
then it does like other atmospheric

573
00:22:01,840 --> 00:21:58,820
networks so it looks like life has sort

574
00:22:04,180 --> 00:22:01,850
of globally organized the statistical

575
00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:04,190
properties of chemical reaction networks

576
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:06,230
and Earth's atmosphere in a way that is

577
00:22:35,610 --> 00:22:06,610
a

578
00:22:38,399 --> 00:22:35,620
being you know the ordered or this you

579
00:22:40,620 --> 00:22:38,409
know patterns organization and so it's

580
00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:40,630
kind of trying to step toward that in a

581
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:43,809
more quantitative way from from what we

582
00:22:48,269 --> 00:22:46,690
have right now so that framework you're

583
00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:48,279
building really requires a strong

584
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:50,289
cooperation between physicists like you

585
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:52,210
who bill ken is at the statistics model

586
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:54,010
most of the astronomers will be looking

587
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:55,330
for those signatures the atmospheric

588
00:22:59,279 --> 00:22:57,490
modelers be modeling to be able to say

589
00:23:00,629 --> 00:22:59,289
something about probably the likelihood

590
00:23:02,899 --> 00:23:00,639
of such atmospheres which are

591
00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:02,909
constrained by geological measurements

592
00:23:08,399 --> 00:23:05,950
and so this is awesome like it's really

593
00:23:10,860 --> 00:23:08,409
like the quest to understand life on

594
00:23:12,570 --> 00:23:10,870
Earth is a quest that requires all of us

595
00:23:16,919 --> 00:23:12,580
on earth to be involved in in answering

596
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:16,929
this magnificent yes one of the

597
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:19,210
implications of that beyond from a

598
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:21,039
scientific perspective but on what it

599
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:24,580
means to be humans are also also you

600
00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:33,970
know kind of mind-boggling I like most

601
00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:35,529
about my job is working with different

602
00:23:38,909 --> 00:23:37,000
people and in particular like this

603
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:38,919
students and postdocs in my group are so

604
00:23:41,639 --> 00:23:40,330
diverse and they all have like such

605
00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:41,649
brilliant ideas to interview all the

606
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:44,110
time that it's just like it's so cool to

607
00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:45,850
follow the path so things that are

608
00:23:55,649 --> 00:23:52,990
they're proposing so yeah it just shows

609
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:55,659
that you can seek those the answers to

610
00:23:58,409 --> 00:23:57,370
such fundamental questions from as the

611
00:24:00,000 --> 00:23:58,419
origin of life you don't necessarily

612
00:24:02,340 --> 00:24:00,010
need to be in a lab and try to replicate

613
00:24:05,159 --> 00:24:02,350
you can have these broader thoughts on

614
00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:05,169
how we actually do try to define what

615
00:24:12,090 --> 00:24:08,049
life is you is there a definition do you

616
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:12,100
think well so my feeling is the

617
00:24:17,279 --> 00:24:14,080
definitions for should derive from a

618
00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:17,289
theory and so oftentimes in particular

619
00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:18,260
in astrobiology

620
00:24:22,210 --> 00:24:20,030
and we've tried to start from definition

621
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:22,220
and then try to infer properties of life

622
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:24,530
and and and there have been arguments

623
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:25,850
against that approach that really we

624
00:24:30,610 --> 00:24:28,610
need to start with theories and then and

625
00:24:32,590 --> 00:24:30,620
then derive definitions from those

626
00:24:35,230 --> 00:24:32,600
theories and that's really an approach

627
00:24:36,610 --> 00:24:35,240
that I can get behind so I think then

628
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:36,620
they think about is like what are the

629
00:24:40,030 --> 00:24:38,720
first one of the axioms of life or the

630
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:40,040
first starting principles that you would

631
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:42,410
reason to build a theory and then try to

632
00:24:45,820 --> 00:24:43,730
build that theory and see what it tells

633
00:24:50,860 --> 00:24:45,830
you about life and presumably those

634
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:50,870
should be testable hypotheses yeah so

635
00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:52,130
don't forget for those of you who are

636
00:24:56,110 --> 00:24:54,350
watching use hashtag ask Esther bio to

637
00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:56,120
ask some questions or use a signet chat

638
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,130
directly you'll be opening up the floor

639
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:00,320
for questions for y'all in a few minutes

640
00:25:04,289 --> 00:25:02,570
but I wanted to chat about something

641
00:25:06,669 --> 00:25:04,299
else if you if you don't mind because

642
00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:06,679
you're kind of almost a superhero right

643
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:08,510
you're you do incredible science you

644
00:25:12,340 --> 00:25:10,730
publish really thought-provoking papers

645
00:25:13,630 --> 00:25:12,350
that are changing the way we think about

646
00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:13,640
problems that we've been working on for

647
00:25:18,159 --> 00:25:16,520
decades your research group is has over

648
00:25:20,350 --> 00:25:18,169
ten people I think now you're teaching

649
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:20,360
classes and you're the mom of two

650
00:25:38,919 --> 00:25:23,090
wonderful kids tell me your secret of

651
00:25:42,909 --> 00:25:38,929
how you manage your time but I think the

652
00:25:45,159 --> 00:25:42,919
thing that really motivates me is I

653
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:45,169
really love what I do and I also really

654
00:25:50,169 --> 00:25:48,410
love my kids and my family so I I have

655
00:25:53,530 --> 00:25:50,179
to try to make sure that I like balance

656
00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:53,540
my time accordingly and sometimes that

657
00:25:56,650 --> 00:25:54,950
can be easier than others because

658
00:25:58,299 --> 00:25:56,660
sometimes everything wants to demand

659
00:26:05,080 --> 00:25:58,309
your attention at once and sometimes

660
00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:05,090
well I'm going to but yeah so so I think

661
00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:07,910
that's also like goes back to my advice

662
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:09,350
at the beginning about following things

663
00:26:12,580 --> 00:26:10,880
that you're really passionate about if

664
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:12,590
you if you really care about the things

665
00:26:17,470 --> 00:26:16,010
you work on even if there there might be

666
00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:17,480
things that are really challenging about

667
00:26:24,130 --> 00:26:19,100
your job or you have to juggle a lot of

668
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:24,140
things it makes it worthwhile so I would

669
00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:25,850
I would obviously not have as much high

670
00:26:30,899 --> 00:26:29,809
energy or or be as I guess productive if

671
00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:30,909
I didn't care about

672
00:26:38,669 --> 00:26:36,190
things that I work on so much yeah yeah

673
00:26:40,499 --> 00:26:38,679
but with two little kids it's difficult

674
00:26:41,909 --> 00:26:40,509
like I got a bit like why something

675
00:26:43,289 --> 00:26:41,919
therefore for this morning to get up so

676
00:26:44,489 --> 00:26:43,299
I could do stuff before they got up but

677
00:26:46,619 --> 00:26:44,499
then I couldn't get up second up at 5:00

678
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:46,629
I got 45 minutes though really so that's

679
00:27:02,009 --> 00:26:58,090
like a you know it's like you know I

680
00:27:06,419 --> 00:27:02,019
just I really like it your enthusiasm is

681
00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:06,429
contagious Sarah it's fantastic so I

682
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:08,289
would have to plug in your your book

683
00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:10,330
that you just released fairly recently

684
00:27:13,859 --> 00:27:11,950
and Cambridge University Press called

685
00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:13,869
from matter to life can you tell us a

686
00:27:19,979 --> 00:27:18,580
bit about it yeah talk to people about

687
00:27:22,229 --> 00:27:19,989
like this kind of perspective on life

688
00:27:23,789 --> 00:27:22,239
and stuff they think that's like um you

689
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:23,799
know it's a it is a really new

690
00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:24,970
perspective but there are a lot of

691
00:27:31,229 --> 00:27:26,950
really good people working on thinking

692
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:31,239
about what life is in in a fundamental

693
00:27:35,969 --> 00:27:33,460
way and trying to build new ways of

694
00:27:37,589 --> 00:27:35,979
thinking about it in particular from the

695
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:37,599
information perspective but just more

696
00:27:41,969 --> 00:27:40,450
broadly and so the idea with that book

697
00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:41,979
was really to try to get some of these

698
00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:44,340
people that are really contributing

699
00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:47,769
great thoughts to this literature to to

700
00:27:52,409 --> 00:27:50,289
write pieces on what they were thinking

701
00:27:55,979 --> 00:27:52,419
for this collection so that we could

702
00:27:57,690 --> 00:27:55,989
have a group of essays that were really

703
00:27:59,729 --> 00:27:57,700
representing the state of the field as

704
00:28:02,339 --> 00:27:59,739
far as how we're thinking about life and

705
00:28:04,409 --> 00:28:02,349
how to approach it from more

706
00:28:06,570 --> 00:28:04,419
quantitative directions and more ways of

707
00:28:08,369 --> 00:28:06,580
thinking more rigorously about some of

708
00:28:12,299 --> 00:28:08,379
these philosophical concepts that have

709
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:12,309
been maybe a little bit hairy and so we

710
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:14,080
have contributions from people across

711
00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:18,210
the spectrum of sciences and philosophy

712
00:28:23,820 --> 00:28:21,700
contributing to it so it was really

713
00:28:25,739 --> 00:28:23,830
exciting to work on it was a lot of work

714
00:28:28,379 --> 00:28:25,749
but I'm really glad that I did it

715
00:28:30,089 --> 00:28:28,389
because it was a really fun project to

716
00:28:31,379 --> 00:28:30,099
do and it's really cool to see all of

717
00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:31,389
those things together and it was super

718
00:28:35,009 --> 00:28:32,590
fun for me to read everybody else's

719
00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:35,019
contributions yeah it's a great

720
00:28:39,509 --> 00:28:38,200
contribution as a whole so let's let's

721
00:28:42,329 --> 00:28:39,519
open it up the questions for now I'm

722
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:42,339
sure all of you online have dying to ask

723
00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:43,970
dr. Walker some

724
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:46,670
for questions again use hashtag ask a

725
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:48,320
survey on Twitter to let us know about

726
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:49,910
your questions or use a cigarette chat

727
00:28:55,390 --> 00:28:52,490
directly so the first question comes

728
00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:55,400
from motor protein and so we talked a

729
00:28:59,080 --> 00:28:57,110
little bit about that question and

730
00:29:01,420 --> 00:28:59,090
during our conversation Sarah but they

731
00:29:02,890 --> 00:29:01,430
want to know how does one get into the

732
00:29:05,290 --> 00:29:02,900
origin of live research and does one

733
00:29:08,020 --> 00:29:05,300
need to be you know in biology to do

734
00:29:10,660 --> 00:29:08,030
that yeah so no you don't necessarily

735
00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:10,670
need to be in biology and I think the

736
00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:12,860
thing to do is to show up and start

737
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:16,070
doing it so so my path was kind of a

738
00:29:21,730 --> 00:29:18,650
little unusual because I was in a ph.d

739
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:21,740
program in physics and my advisor just

740
00:29:26,050 --> 00:29:23,360
started working on origins of life when

741
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:26,060
I started working on it so most of the

742
00:29:30,010 --> 00:29:27,590
way like when I was applying for jobs

743
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:30,020
and things I actually really had to go

744
00:29:34,060 --> 00:29:32,000
out on my own and go to conferences and

745
00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:34,070
like meet people and talk to them and

746
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:36,230
try to get them excited about the ways I

747
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:38,570
was thinking about the problem and I

748
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:40,490
remember like a few of conferences I

749
00:29:44,110 --> 00:29:42,230
would - I was I was like one of two

750
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:44,120
physicists or theorists in the room

751
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:46,130
because mostly the origins of life has

752
00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:47,440
been Oh

753
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:49,550
predominantly organic chemists and

754
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:51,370
people thinking about provided chemistry

755
00:29:58,390 --> 00:29:56,090
and so so I really just had to be very

756
00:29:59,770 --> 00:29:58,400
persistent and in fact I will tell you

757
00:30:01,330 --> 00:29:59,780
don't let anybody tell you you can't do

758
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:01,340
or Jin - like her career if you really

759
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:02,690
care about it cuz somebody told me in

760
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:04,250
grad school is a very prominent origin

761
00:30:06,910 --> 00:30:05,570
of life researcher that I should get out

762
00:30:08,110 --> 00:30:06,920
of the field now because I there's no

763
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:08,120
hope of a career in it because there are

764
00:30:17,530 --> 00:30:15,290
no jobs in origins of life sorry to wake

765
00:30:19,690 --> 00:30:17,540
everybody but I think it's really like

766
00:30:21,610 --> 00:30:19,700
like at the time I was mortified I

767
00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:21,620
remember like I was a grad student and

768
00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:23,630
you know in a cosmology group I want to

769
00:30:26,350 --> 00:30:24,980
do origins of life and I met this

770
00:30:28,030 --> 00:30:26,360
conference like try to talk to be able

771
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:28,040
so I like go back my room like crying

772
00:30:35,980 --> 00:30:34,610
about it I'm like oh but um but I I you

773
00:30:37,630 --> 00:30:35,990
know the next day went and talked to

774
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:37,640
more people and and I actually ended up

775
00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:39,760
getting a job out of that conference so

776
00:30:45,910 --> 00:30:43,400
so I think it takes a lot of persistence

777
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:45,920
a origin or life obviously is not you

778
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:47,710
know a field that's in every department

779
00:30:53,170 --> 00:30:50,960
but even if like you get into an

780
00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:53,180
undergrad program or grad program and

781
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:55,070
there's not anybody explicitly working

782
00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:56,720
on words of life you can

783
00:30:59,980 --> 00:30:58,640
try to direct your program into things

784
00:31:02,169 --> 00:30:59,990
that are using or going to be relevant

785
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:02,179
and try to read the relevant literature

786
00:31:05,980 --> 00:31:04,610
and steer yourself in that direction and

787
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:05,990
start trying to connect with people who

788
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:07,730
are in origins of communities so I think

789
00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:09,440
with all these things that's really

790
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:11,630
about your passion and your drive and

791
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:14,240
and all the other things follow after

792
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:18,830
that all right thanks Rashi asks about

793
00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:20,240
something we've talked about also about

794
00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:23,900
your search for this theory of life are

795
00:31:34,750 --> 00:31:33,250
I guess maybe I've been thinking about

796
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:34,760
it long enough that I'm not so worried

797
00:31:38,350 --> 00:31:35,690
about it I guess the one thing I'm

798
00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:38,360
worried about is like that I might never

799
00:31:44,169 --> 00:31:42,740
see it so like yeah and actually some of

800
00:31:45,370 --> 00:31:44,179
my students joke that like if they ever

801
00:31:52,330 --> 00:31:45,380
figure out what like this they're not

802
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:52,340
gonna tell me I mean I think about it a

803
00:31:56,649 --> 00:31:54,650
lot I think about it at odd times so it

804
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:56,659
might be like you know I'm I'm in the

805
00:31:59,560 --> 00:31:58,130
car with my family they pick me up from

806
00:32:00,760 --> 00:31:59,570
work and I still have like my head in

807
00:32:02,110 --> 00:32:00,770
the clouds about like thinking about

808
00:32:04,570 --> 00:32:02,120
things or like pop in when I'm like

809
00:32:05,649 --> 00:32:04,580
redoing my kids at night but but I think

810
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:05,659
that's because like when you're working

811
00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:08,330
in creative spaces and it requires a lot

812
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:09,710
of mental power you can't really get

813
00:32:15,210 --> 00:32:13,490
your head out of it so but I don't I

814
00:32:18,310 --> 00:32:15,220
don't like sit away at night wondering

815
00:32:20,529 --> 00:32:18,320
things usually unless well occasionally

816
00:32:24,130 --> 00:32:20,539
I do but it's usually very more specific

817
00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:24,140
not kind of general things I hear yeah I

818
00:32:27,669 --> 00:32:26,120
think I have my my personal assign to

819
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:27,679
make insights come from when I'm not at

820
00:32:36,909 --> 00:32:32,890
work strangely enough I'm like so rohan

821
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:36,919
asks in which areas of astrobiology you

822
00:32:45,299 --> 00:32:39,440
think artificial intelligence will be

823
00:32:48,220 --> 00:32:45,309
most useful so this is a great question

824
00:32:50,020 --> 00:32:48,230
I mean the one that I thought about the

825
00:32:52,210 --> 00:32:50,030
most are origins of life research

826
00:32:55,690 --> 00:32:52,220
because there there's the ability with

827
00:32:57,159 --> 00:32:55,700
AI to to enhance like exploration of

828
00:32:58,419 --> 00:32:57,169
chemical space with like chemical

829
00:33:02,799 --> 00:32:58,429
robotics like things and people are

830
00:33:04,570 --> 00:33:02,809
publishing on that now and exoplanet

831
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:04,580
research with trying to like mine large

832
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:08,799
datasets very rapidly and

833
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:11,570
but I think also even just understanding

834
00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:13,250
evolution better like looking for

835
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:15,640
patterns in the history of the coupled

836
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:18,410
biological and geological record I mean

837
00:33:24,820 --> 00:33:21,410
we have massive data and trying to make

838
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:24,830
sense of that is difficult so I think I

839
00:33:28,510 --> 00:33:26,960
think AI and machine learning are gonna

840
00:33:32,289 --> 00:33:28,520
be really important for those kind of

841
00:33:34,060 --> 00:33:32,299
questions as well so I think like most

842
00:33:35,890 --> 00:33:34,070
fields of science it's going to be a

843
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:35,900
major revolution for us in astrobiology

844
00:33:43,090 --> 00:33:39,679
in the coming decade as far as our

845
00:33:46,750 --> 00:33:43,100
methods cool

846
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:46,760
Siraj asks what language you code in and

847
00:34:01,570 --> 00:33:49,010
what computer science subject do you use

848
00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:01,580
in your day-to-day work yeah so most of

849
00:34:04,390 --> 00:34:03,380
the people in my research group also use

850
00:34:06,070 --> 00:34:04,400
python but we have a couple of people

851
00:34:06,970 --> 00:34:06,080
that use julia and i've been trying to

852
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:06,980
wait to see like when the phase

853
00:34:09,310 --> 00:34:08,000
transition is going to happen from

854
00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:09,320
Python to Julia because they're very

855
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:11,119
convincing that julia is better which I

856
00:34:17,230 --> 00:34:12,770
don't even really understand the details

857
00:34:19,780 --> 00:34:17,240
but so I use Python personally but we we

858
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:19,790
use a lot of different kinds of things

859
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:22,490
in our work because I like we work a lot

860
00:34:25,629 --> 00:34:24,169
in origins of life but we work across

861
00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:25,639
all scales of biological organization

862
00:34:31,690 --> 00:34:28,550
and depending on the system different

863
00:34:32,649 --> 00:34:31,700
methods are needed so so there was just

864
00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:32,659
a question about like machine learning

865
00:34:37,060 --> 00:34:34,609
and doing those kind of techniques and I

866
00:34:38,530 --> 00:34:37,070
have a student that's very into AI and

867
00:34:41,770 --> 00:34:38,540
he's basically taught himself like the

868
00:34:43,930 --> 00:34:41,780
entire field and he's amazing and then I

869
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:43,940
we work on ants and we needed something

870
00:34:47,470 --> 00:34:45,770
to be able to track the ants so that we

871
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:47,480
could actually do information measures

872
00:34:50,830 --> 00:34:49,010
on ant behavior because we want to

873
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:50,840
understand how information might

874
00:34:57,150 --> 00:34:53,510
structure collective behavior in ant

875
00:34:59,440 --> 00:34:57,160
colonies and so so he ended up building

876
00:35:01,900 --> 00:34:59,450
some deep learning algorithms for us to

877
00:35:03,660 --> 00:35:01,910
track the ants and so that's just like

878
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:03,670
one example of sort of

879
00:35:07,540 --> 00:35:05,690
cross-disciplinary work just in our own

880
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:07,550
research group as far as you know like

881
00:35:09,970 --> 00:35:08,810
somebody working on something totally

882
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:09,980
distinct helping with another project

883
00:35:16,450 --> 00:35:13,520
and I think that's really cool and so I

884
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:16,460
don't I think one of the things that is

885
00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:18,170
the best skill set as a

886
00:35:21,370 --> 00:35:19,670
programmer or somebody interested in

887
00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:21,380
computational methods it's just to be

888
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:22,910
adaptable and be able to learn new

889
00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:25,520
techniques and also to be able to code

890
00:35:29,650 --> 00:35:27,020
with other people so one of the things

891
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:29,660
that I think is the most exciting about

892
00:35:32,380 --> 00:35:31,490
the students and postdocs I work with is

893
00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:32,390
how much they like to work together

894
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:35,030
which is super cool because they're

895
00:35:37,809 --> 00:35:36,710
they're like so creative when they get

896
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:37,819
together in groups and like try to

897
00:35:40,569 --> 00:35:38,930
figure stuff out and they do a lot of

898
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:40,579
coding together and developing the

899
00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:42,049
software packages and stuff and those

900
00:35:45,849 --> 00:35:43,790
end up being very useful like to the

901
00:35:48,579 --> 00:35:45,859
whole group and so I think that's been

902
00:35:50,849 --> 00:35:48,589
really powerful and important for our

903
00:35:53,410 --> 00:35:50,859
research as far as being able to do more

904
00:35:56,140 --> 00:35:53,420
collectively than we would ever do

905
00:35:57,390 --> 00:35:56,150
individually which is always the great

906
00:36:02,250 --> 00:35:57,400
thing about working with other people

907
00:36:07,329 --> 00:36:05,859
Julia the Marine asks tell us more about

908
00:36:13,589 --> 00:36:07,339
the difference between living systems

909
00:36:19,559 --> 00:36:15,730
you may have asking me what I think the

910
00:36:26,289 --> 00:36:23,650
yeah so it's a great question so I think

911
00:36:28,420 --> 00:36:26,299
the key differences go to to information

912
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:28,430
but that's actually a really loaded word

913
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:30,710
and so there are like a million

914
00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:32,240
definitions for how people think about

915
00:36:36,849 --> 00:36:34,280
information that range from things that

916
00:36:38,740 --> 00:36:36,859
are trying to capture its meaningful

917
00:36:41,890 --> 00:36:38,750
aspects or semantic aspects or to like

918
00:36:43,870 --> 00:36:41,900
the way Shannon qualified information

919
00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:43,880
theory is like communication on a noisy

920
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:45,470
Channel and all those things are sort of

921
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:47,930
relevant but the thing that I think is

922
00:36:53,740 --> 00:36:52,160
really important and and might be useful

923
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:53,750
for purposes of discussion although I

924
00:36:56,589 --> 00:36:55,130
have never figured out really how to

925
00:36:58,359 --> 00:36:56,599
formulate this in the right way in my

926
00:36:59,799 --> 00:36:58,369
own mind is that the concept that's

927
00:37:02,470 --> 00:36:59,809
really relevant to biology it's not

928
00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:02,480
necessarily information but knowledge

929
00:37:06,190 --> 00:37:04,609
and that seems like a subtle distinction

930
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:06,200
but the thing that's intriguing about

931
00:37:09,579 --> 00:37:08,180
biological systems is they have models

932
00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:09,589
of their world or knowledge of the

933
00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:11,270
external world and they can actually use

934
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:14,270
that knowledge so the example I give

935
00:37:19,809 --> 00:37:16,250
which seems very far from origins of

936
00:37:21,130 --> 00:37:19,819
life but as my favorite example is to

937
00:37:24,609 --> 00:37:21,140
think about like launching satellites

938
00:37:29,170 --> 00:37:24,619
into space and so we do that as a

939
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:29,180
technological civilization now and and

940
00:37:31,970 --> 00:37:30,710
the reason I think is a relevant example

941
00:37:34,310 --> 00:37:31,980
because Earth

942
00:37:35,780 --> 00:37:34,320
as thousands of satellites orbiting it

943
00:37:38,420 --> 00:37:35,790
right now but if you think about Earth

944
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:38,430
without life earth without technology we

945
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:40,560
have the moon as the only satellite the

946
00:37:45,859 --> 00:37:42,510
only natural satellite orbiting Earth

947
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:45,869
and so basically what our civilization

948
00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:48,240
has accomplished is making more

949
00:37:52,190 --> 00:37:49,980
artificial satellites than natural

950
00:37:53,930 --> 00:37:52,200
satellites for Earth now that's

951
00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:53,940
interesting because those natural

952
00:37:57,530 --> 00:37:55,830
satellites would never exist unless

953
00:37:58,700 --> 00:37:57,540
there was a technological I mean those

954
00:38:00,440 --> 00:37:58,710
artificial satellites would never exist

955
00:38:02,690 --> 00:38:00,450
unless there was a civilization with

956
00:38:04,849 --> 00:38:02,700
knowledge of the laws of gravitation so

957
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:04,859
we figured out something about the world

958
00:38:09,710 --> 00:38:07,410
about how the world works and we used it

959
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:09,720
to create this new thing this this

960
00:38:12,830 --> 00:38:11,490
possibility of Earth having thousands of

961
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:12,840
satellites whereas natural processes

962
00:38:18,050 --> 00:38:15,900
might give it one or a few and I think

963
00:38:20,090 --> 00:38:18,060
that's that is very telling of the most

964
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:20,100
intrinsic property of life it's not just

965
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:22,800
that it takes information or that it

966
00:38:27,590 --> 00:38:24,510
uses information but it actually uses

967
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:27,600
that information to generate novelty to

968
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:28,650
generate things that wouldn't exist

969
00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:30,090
without that information and that sort

970
00:38:33,260 --> 00:38:31,740
of the cascading process that the

971
00:38:36,050 --> 00:38:33,270
biosphere has been doing over four

972
00:38:37,490 --> 00:38:36,060
billion years and so that's the process

973
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:37,500
that we need to understand is that

974
00:38:42,530 --> 00:38:40,650
extended structure of acquiring

975
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:42,540
knowledge and using it to generate new

976
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:50,400
possibilities over time this I wish to

977
00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:52,380
show was like three hours long for every

978
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:53,609
one of our guests it's always such a

979
00:38:58,580 --> 00:38:56,160
fascinating conversation so the

980
00:39:00,500 --> 00:38:58,590
discussion about information translates

981
00:39:03,260 --> 00:39:00,510
a little bit to the next question by Ben

982
00:39:05,390 --> 00:39:03,270
Pierce who asks you mentioned describing

983
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:05,400
life as information transfer when

984
00:39:08,510 --> 00:39:07,290
imagining the units of information being

985
00:39:10,370 --> 00:39:08,520
transferred are you thinking about

986
00:39:14,030 --> 00:39:10,380
information polymers or other

987
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:14,040
non-genetic types of information it

988
00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:16,050
could be non-genetic I mean certainly I

989
00:39:20,060 --> 00:39:18,300
am transferring information to everyone

990
00:39:21,740 --> 00:39:20,070
right now and I would by no means say

991
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:21,750
that's genetic information but I think

992
00:39:25,340 --> 00:39:23,490
it's important information and it's

993
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:25,350
relevant and it and so the interesting

994
00:39:32,540 --> 00:39:28,130
thing about information that I think is

995
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:32,550
not as appreciated unless you think

996
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:35,280
about it a lot is that information has

997
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:38,970
this property that it can be it can mean

998
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:40,410
the same thing even though it might be

999
00:39:44,359 --> 00:39:42,090
in difficult different physical hardware

1000
00:39:45,980 --> 00:39:44,369
so so I'm talking now and

1001
00:39:48,019 --> 00:39:45,990
you know my information is entering my

1002
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:48,029
speakers and it's transferring like all

1003
00:39:51,499 --> 00:39:49,170
the way to you guys and then being

1004
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:51,509
output and and just read through the air

1005
00:39:53,870 --> 00:39:52,650
to your ears and then you're getting the

1006
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:53,880
information and you're understanding uh

1007
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:55,410
somehow in your brain so there's a lot

1008
00:40:01,130 --> 00:39:56,880
of different kinds of physical media

1009
00:40:02,749 --> 00:40:01,140
that information moved through and the

1010
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:02,759
information is not necessarily an

1011
00:40:08,359 --> 00:40:04,970
intrinsic property of any one of them

1012
00:40:10,220 --> 00:40:08,369
it's more about how that signal is

1013
00:40:13,819 --> 00:40:10,230
propagated through those systems and how

1014
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:13,829
you as a receiver or somebody that can

1015
00:40:17,509 --> 00:40:15,359
understand what I'm saying actually

1016
00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:17,519
interpret that information and so that's

1017
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:19,049
the more critical aspect so we tend to

1018
00:40:23,210 --> 00:40:20,970
think about like DNA as having

1019
00:40:27,950 --> 00:40:23,220
information DNA doesn't have information

1020
00:40:29,569 --> 00:40:27,960
it has a FS you think about storing

1021
00:40:31,489 --> 00:40:29,579
information but it doesn't really do

1022
00:40:33,289 --> 00:40:31,499
anything until it's read out and that's

1023
00:40:34,940 --> 00:40:33,299
actually when it is information is when

1024
00:40:38,029 --> 00:40:34,950
it's controlling something about the

1025
00:40:40,819 --> 00:40:38,039
cellular state and so that kind of

1026
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:40,829
process actually can happen in chemistry

1027
00:40:50,210 --> 00:40:44,490
it can happen in computers it can happen

1028
00:40:52,339 --> 00:40:50,220
in ant colonies so so there it's a more

1029
00:40:56,589 --> 00:40:52,349
ubiquitous process than just being types

1030
00:41:00,859 --> 00:40:56,599
of thinking about genetics fascinating

1031
00:41:02,569 --> 00:41:00,869
Eduardo Rodriguez Roman asks about your

1032
00:41:03,859 --> 00:41:02,579
personal definition of life or you have

1033
00:41:08,029 --> 00:41:03,869
one or maybe you don't because that

1034
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:08,039
would bias your research no I do I do

1035
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:10,170
have a personal definition but it falls

1036
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:12,210
as a function of time and actually one

1037
00:41:15,049 --> 00:41:13,680
of my favorite things to do and we

1038
00:41:16,370 --> 00:41:15,059
haven't done this in a while but in my

1039
00:41:17,870 --> 00:41:16,380
research group is to have a what is life

1040
00:41:19,549 --> 00:41:17,880
discussion and everybody's right their

1041
00:41:20,930 --> 00:41:19,559
definition on the board so like I get

1042
00:41:22,370 --> 00:41:20,940
held to having to write a definition to

1043
00:41:23,539 --> 00:41:22,380
so it's kind of funny because nobody

1044
00:41:26,690 --> 00:41:23,549
wants to like say what their definition

1045
00:41:28,729 --> 00:41:26,700
is and underpinned to it and they change

1046
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:28,739
all the time so my definition today

1047
00:41:36,819 --> 00:41:31,950
might be different than tomorrow but I

1048
00:41:39,140 --> 00:41:36,829
think so so one thing I think is a

1049
00:41:41,779 --> 00:41:39,150
common misconception as we think with

1050
00:41:46,930 --> 00:41:41,789
like more like a thing than a process

1051
00:41:49,370 --> 00:41:46,940
and so what I think life is is when

1052
00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:49,380
information matters to systems and

1053
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:00,270
for let me try to think about how to say

1054
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:05,290
this yeah with it's it's sort of like

1055
00:42:08,460 --> 00:42:06,910
like life is a property that's

1056
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:08,470
distributed in space and time and the

1057
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:10,210
the structure of that system is actually

1058
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:12,790
that by how information is flowing and

1059
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:14,170
that system so that that seems very

1060
00:42:17,609 --> 00:42:16,270
abstract but but basically it means when

1061
00:42:20,299 --> 00:42:17,619
information actually matters to the

1062
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:20,309
world its life in a way that is

1063
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:25,690
reproducible yeah so so obviously very

1064
00:42:31,170 --> 00:42:29,530
abstract and needs articulation it's a

1065
00:42:33,059 --> 00:42:31,180
great way to think differently about

1066
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:33,069
something we've been thinking similarly

1067
00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:34,690
for half a decade so it's just setting

1068
00:42:38,339 --> 00:42:35,710
us in a new course I think it's

1069
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:38,349
fantastic right yeah and I think is like

1070
00:42:42,210 --> 00:42:40,690
it's that and that's why it's hard it's

1071
00:42:44,010 --> 00:42:42,220
like there's not really a clear boundary

1072
00:42:46,049 --> 00:42:44,020
to that prop because it's a dynamical

1073
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:46,059
process that has to involve it and it's

1074
00:42:50,430 --> 00:42:48,730
about the structure of that process yeah

1075
00:42:51,809 --> 00:42:50,440
that's what makes it so hard and why

1076
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:51,819
origins of like research are really

1077
00:42:58,859 --> 00:42:53,440
important it's essentially job to you

1078
00:43:03,150 --> 00:42:58,869
because the problem is so hard so Nitin

1079
00:43:06,990 --> 00:43:03,160
asks how can we use microbes to attack

1080
00:43:10,170 --> 00:43:07,000
your origin of life research fantastic

1081
00:43:11,970 --> 00:43:10,180
so so I think one of the things that's

1082
00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:11,980
really been interesting for me be

1083
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:16,000
thinking about using current biology to

1084
00:43:20,670 --> 00:43:17,770
understand origins of life is to think

1085
00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:20,680
about in this kind of abstract sense

1086
00:43:25,109 --> 00:43:23,200
like how our living systems processing

1087
00:43:29,609 --> 00:43:25,119
information what are they doing and also

1088
00:43:31,940 --> 00:43:29,619
how the structure of systems like what

1089
00:43:35,789 --> 00:43:31,950
might be that the things that are

1090
00:43:37,349 --> 00:43:35,799
universal across all life and also how

1091
00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:37,359
that is tied to the environment so that

1092
00:43:40,099 --> 00:43:38,380
seems like a whole bunch of things

1093
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:40,109
somehow my brain those are all related

1094
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:45,010
but but the idea is if you if you say

1095
00:43:51,839 --> 00:43:47,490
take a microbe and you want to look at

1096
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:51,849
how it's working and usually what we do

1097
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:53,530
right currently is like try to look at

1098
00:43:56,370 --> 00:43:54,730
all the individual parts and then we

1099
00:43:58,049 --> 00:43:56,380
build up the system from there but you

1100
00:43:59,700 --> 00:43:58,059
can actually also look at it as systems

1101
00:44:01,079 --> 00:43:59,710
level and look at the organization of

1102
00:44:03,210 --> 00:44:01,089
that system and how information is

1103
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:03,220
flowing that's and so that's one way of

1104
00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:06,490
trying to understand what that system is

1105
00:44:10,220 --> 00:44:09,160
from a more fundamental perspective but

1106
00:44:13,130 --> 00:44:10,230
just to give you a more kind

1107
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:13,140
example because I've been talking Everio

1108
00:44:16,220 --> 00:44:14,490
abstractly but we do do a lot of

1109
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:16,230
concrete work in my group it's just

1110
00:44:20,090 --> 00:44:18,330
trying to give this sort of high-level

1111
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:20,100
picture while us are resolving details

1112
00:44:26,990 --> 00:44:21,810
is very challenging in the short time we

1113
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:27,000
have but by a lot of people work in you

1114
00:44:29,690 --> 00:44:28,560
know like hot spring ecosystems and

1115
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:29,700
things in their study and like whole

1116
00:44:33,140 --> 00:44:31,170
communities and I think that kind of

1117
00:44:34,580 --> 00:44:33,150
work as far as like how microbes are

1118
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:34,590
interacting with their environment and

1119
00:44:38,180 --> 00:44:36,480
things is very important for

1120
00:44:39,470 --> 00:44:38,190
understanding what the early drivers of

1121
00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:39,480
the emergence of those kind of systems

1122
00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:42,230
might events and so when I think that

1123
00:44:47,780 --> 00:44:44,880
we're really interested in doing is

1124
00:44:48,890 --> 00:44:47,790
looking at the structure of networks in

1125
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:48,900
those systems and how those networks

1126
00:44:52,070 --> 00:44:50,490
actually coupled to the geochemical

1127
00:44:53,390 --> 00:44:52,080
context and so that's one way of trying

1128
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:53,400
to actually really look at like the

1129
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:55,170
planetary drivers of processes which

1130
00:44:59,930 --> 00:44:57,810
would actually hopefully help illuminate

1131
00:45:03,109 --> 00:44:59,940
how those kind of systems emerged in my

1132
00:45:03,859 --> 00:45:03,119
first place so why studying microbes and

1133
00:45:11,620 --> 00:45:03,869
hot springs

1134
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:11,630
hint hint - sure has the next question

1135
00:45:17,090 --> 00:45:14,910
and he asks how do you connect the third

1136
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:17,100
bounnam if the thermodynamic drivers for

1137
00:45:21,230 --> 00:45:19,040
the origin of life in parentheses

1138
00:45:23,660 --> 00:45:21,240
relaxation pathways for planetary

1139
00:45:26,090 --> 00:45:23,670
chemical disequilibrium with your

1140
00:45:30,530 --> 00:45:26,100
perspective on information essential to

1141
00:45:31,790 --> 00:45:30,540
the nature of life yeah it's quite a lot

1142
00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:31,800
lately and there's a couple of things

1143
00:45:34,820 --> 00:45:33,300
that I think are really promising in

1144
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:34,830
that direction one is a field that I'm

1145
00:45:39,020 --> 00:45:36,210
not so familiar with but I've been

1146
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:39,030
trying to like learn more about which is

1147
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:40,050
that there's been some really

1148
00:45:46,910 --> 00:45:42,810
fascinating and work in non equilibrium

1149
00:45:50,420 --> 00:45:46,920
thermodynamics about what information is

1150
00:45:51,770 --> 00:45:50,430
in the thermodynamic sense and so so

1151
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:51,780
there have been some some new

1152
00:45:57,620 --> 00:45:53,930
innovations about information actually

1153
00:45:59,570 --> 00:45:57,630
being a way of extracting work and so

1154
00:46:00,800 --> 00:45:59,580
that seems have relevance for origins of

1155
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:00,810
life where we want to talk about these

1156
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:02,520
thermodynamic processes driving the

1157
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:04,770
system but ultimately somehow we have to

1158
00:46:08,810 --> 00:46:06,510
transition to an informational narrative

1159
00:46:10,010 --> 00:46:08,820
to be consistent with biology and so

1160
00:46:11,690 --> 00:46:10,020
I've been trying to do some work on

1161
00:46:13,220 --> 00:46:11,700
importing some of those ideas into how

1162
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:13,230
we think about working like models and

1163
00:46:15,410 --> 00:46:14,400
other people have been doing those kind

1164
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:15,420
of things which i think is really

1165
00:46:19,810 --> 00:46:18,810
exciting work the other one is that

1166
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:19,820
we've been doing some work with

1167
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:21,810
biochemical networks and their

1168
00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:23,609
organization and I think there is a way

1169
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:23,940
of

1170
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,130
electrons like redox is what usually

1171
00:46:33,110 --> 00:46:31,200
people think about and there's natural

1172
00:46:34,970 --> 00:46:33,120
analogies there between the structure

1173
00:46:36,590 --> 00:46:34,980
biochemistry and the structure of

1174
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:36,600
computer architecture and how electrons

1175
00:46:40,010 --> 00:46:38,400
are flowing through computers and what

1176
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:40,020
those networks look like and so I've

1177
00:46:42,980 --> 00:46:41,040
been trying to actually explore those

1178
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:42,990
kind of analogies as far as if they

1179
00:46:47,210 --> 00:46:45,810
think about redox and how redox greens

1180
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:47,220
might have structured life on a planet

1181
00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:49,170
that maybe that's really kind of you

1182
00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:50,040
could think of that as a kind of

1183
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:51,420
computation and emergence of a

1184
00:46:56,090 --> 00:46:54,210
computational system so I think that

1185
00:46:58,100 --> 00:46:56,100
that's also this part where we think

1186
00:46:59,420 --> 00:46:58,110
about information is being genetics but

1187
00:47:00,830 --> 00:46:59,430
it could be much earlier than that and

1188
00:47:02,570 --> 00:47:00,840
it might just be embedded in the

1189
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:02,580
structure of the way these reaction

1190
00:47:05,690 --> 00:47:04,290
networks organize that they really are

1191
00:47:09,350 --> 00:47:05,700
doing these kind of informational

1192
00:47:15,410 --> 00:47:09,360
processes from a start it's good

1193
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:15,420
question Karl Siraj asks does your

1194
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:17,280
research help understand the hierarchy

1195
00:47:23,810 --> 00:47:19,920
of biology that develops following the

1196
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,820
start yeah so I'm fascinated by that

1197
00:47:27,110 --> 00:47:25,440
question like most physicists I could

1198
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:27,120
have specified hierarchies I don't I

1199
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:28,710
don't know what it is but the way our

1200
00:47:32,570 --> 00:47:30,450
brains are trained but hierarchies are

1201
00:47:33,830 --> 00:47:32,580
fascinating and a lot of people from

1202
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:33,840
like the physics side think that the

1203
00:47:36,890 --> 00:47:35,490
hierarchy of biology is actually the

1204
00:47:38,150 --> 00:47:36,900
hardest problem of understanding life

1205
00:47:41,180 --> 00:47:38,160
and that's where most of the fundamental

1206
00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:41,190
physics is explainable because that's

1207
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:43,380
where you start to get information flows

1208
00:47:47,620 --> 00:47:45,210
that are not necessarily just bottom up

1209
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:47,630
but top down information flows like the

1210
00:47:51,710 --> 00:47:50,130
example is the most abstract and

1211
00:47:53,660 --> 00:47:51,720
philosophical is that your brain has

1212
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:53,670
thoughts and those actually control your

1213
00:47:56,810 --> 00:47:54,930
actions so it's a very high level

1214
00:47:59,150 --> 00:47:56,820
process controlling a low level process

1215
00:48:01,490 --> 00:47:59,160
but we see that across the hierarchy so

1216
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:01,500
I'm really interested in why new levels

1217
00:48:04,670 --> 00:48:03,570
emerge what they're doing and also how

1218
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:04,680
they change the structure of lower

1219
00:48:08,780 --> 00:48:07,290
levels by the kind of constraints they

1220
00:48:10,460 --> 00:48:08,790
impose in one place that we've been

1221
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:10,470
looking at that is with biochemical

1222
00:48:15,410 --> 00:48:13,200
networks more generally and showing that

1223
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:15,420
if you look at the structure from like

1224
00:48:19,460 --> 00:48:17,450
an abstract network perspective

1225
00:48:21,590 --> 00:48:19,470
individuals don't look very like they

1226
00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:21,600
scale the same way as ecosystems and

1227
00:48:24,530 --> 00:48:23,250
that structure actually seems to extend

1228
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:24,540
all the way to the biosphere as a whole

1229
00:48:27,770 --> 00:48:26,160
so there there's a very regular

1230
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:27,780
structure across the hierarchy of

1231
00:48:31,730 --> 00:48:30,330
individuals ecosystems biosphere as far

1232
00:48:33,860 --> 00:48:31,740
as how biochemistry is organized

1233
00:48:37,339 --> 00:48:33,870
globally and I think that's a really

1234
00:48:39,620 --> 00:48:37,349
fascinating window into this problem of

1235
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:39,630
European how living systems organize

1236
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:43,650
across scales well it's a really good

1237
00:48:46,370 --> 00:48:45,210
question if any of you are interested in

1238
00:48:52,759 --> 00:48:46,380
working on hierarchies you should

1239
00:48:55,249 --> 00:48:52,769
they're very tough Yanis tom vacas asks

1240
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:55,259
hi Sarah I have a possible generic life

1241
00:49:00,289 --> 00:48:57,359
quantification metric that I'm working

1242
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:00,299
on and I have was wondering if you have

1243
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:01,710
anything along these lines that you're

1244
00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:07,410
thinking of as well so I am interested

1245
00:49:11,479 --> 00:49:09,089
in quantifying life but as I said I

1246
00:49:13,849 --> 00:49:11,489
don't I don't think of life as a static

1247
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:13,859
property so I think I don't know

1248
00:49:15,979 --> 00:49:14,910
anything about your measure I think it's

1249
00:49:16,579 --> 00:49:15,989
fascinating that you have one so that's

1250
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:16,589
awesome

1251
00:49:23,319 --> 00:49:19,170
and you should keep developing it but I

1252
00:49:26,539 --> 00:49:23,329
I guess I think that you can measure

1253
00:49:28,819 --> 00:49:26,549
like how alive a system is but but it

1254
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:28,829
would be something about the dynamical

1255
00:49:31,549 --> 00:49:31,170
structure of that system and that's all

1256
00:49:35,089 --> 00:49:31,559
I can say

1257
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:35,099
at this exact juncture at night as far

1258
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:39,690
as my thinking Richard Gordon asks what

1259
00:49:42,829 --> 00:49:42,210
are your thoughts on oil droplets origin

1260
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:42,839
of life

1261
00:49:51,499 --> 00:49:45,690
I like oil droplet they're fun to watch

1262
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:51,509
scurry around I so so something that

1263
00:49:55,219 --> 00:49:53,729
that probably annoyed some people is

1264
00:49:57,709 --> 00:49:55,229
that I'm sure I'm not stink about the

1265
00:49:59,930 --> 00:49:57,719
chemistry that started like I don't I

1266
00:50:02,959 --> 00:49:59,940
don't necessarily have a preference of

1267
00:50:04,999 --> 00:50:02,969
like oil droplets first or metabolism

1268
00:50:06,589 --> 00:50:05,009
first or genetics first I really just

1269
00:50:08,299 --> 00:50:06,599
want I want to understand the processes

1270
00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:08,309
that give rise to living systems and

1271
00:50:11,630 --> 00:50:10,200
they might in my mind they could

1272
00:50:13,069 --> 00:50:11,640
manifest in a lot of different chemical

1273
00:50:14,809 --> 00:50:13,079
systems and this might be why we have

1274
00:50:16,749 --> 00:50:14,819
promising leads a lots of different

1275
00:50:21,940 --> 00:50:16,759
kinds of chemistry being the first step

1276
00:50:25,009 --> 00:50:21,950
and so so from the sense that they have

1277
00:50:26,269 --> 00:50:25,019
they can exhibit lifelike behavior and

1278
00:50:28,479 --> 00:50:26,279
those kind of things I'm interested in

1279
00:50:30,799 --> 00:50:28,489
how chemistry can organize to do that

1280
00:50:32,539 --> 00:50:30,809
but the oil droplets themselves I don't

1281
00:50:34,959 --> 00:50:32,549
have a preference on whether that's the

1282
00:50:40,519 --> 00:50:34,969
exact model for origins of life on Earth

1283
00:50:43,309 --> 00:50:40,529
Lee Cronin might disagree Maya or

1284
00:50:47,029 --> 00:50:43,319
escovitch English asks I've been writing

1285
00:50:49,999 --> 00:50:47,039
a sci-fi story where a planetary is sigh

1286
00:50:51,020 --> 00:50:50,009
artists assesses planets based on

1287
00:50:52,580 --> 00:50:51,030
initial conditions

1288
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:52,590
and one estimates the possibility the

1289
00:50:56,990 --> 00:50:54,410
possible evolutionary scenarios and

1290
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:57,000
life-forms that can or will live on that

1291
00:50:59,960 --> 00:50:57,570
planet

1292
00:51:04,760 --> 00:50:59,970
well that ever be possible to do or is

1293
00:51:06,650 --> 00:51:04,770
it just sci-fi at this stage it depends

1294
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:06,660
on what you mean by possible so there's

1295
00:51:09,530 --> 00:51:08,370
there's possible and that we don't have

1296
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:09,540
the knowledge to do it or there's

1297
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:11,130
possible that it's actually physically

1298
00:51:15,290 --> 00:51:13,680
possible to predict and I'm on the line

1299
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:15,300
that it's not physically possible to

1300
00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:19,170
predict because if you if you look at I

1301
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:21,510
guess the reason I ate I take that

1302
00:51:26,690 --> 00:51:23,760
perspective is that I really do think

1303
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:26,700
that biology genuinely generates novelty

1304
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:32,370
and it's not necessarily my favorite try

1305
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:33,930
to avoid it was hard in these concepts

1306
00:51:39,050 --> 00:51:37,290
but but if you think about like what is

1307
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:39,060
possible physicists usually like to

1308
00:51:45,590 --> 00:51:43,520
iterate a finite set of things but in

1309
00:51:46,910 --> 00:51:45,600
biology seems to generally create things

1310
00:51:48,740 --> 00:51:46,920
that are new and and maybe aren't

1311
00:51:50,180 --> 00:51:48,750
anticipated so I think we can understand

1312
00:51:51,770 --> 00:51:50,190
the process of generating those new

1313
00:51:53,870 --> 00:51:51,780
things but not the specific new things

1314
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:53,880
that are generated I can't predict the

1315
00:51:58,070 --> 00:51:55,410
future essentially of what life is going

1316
00:52:00,530 --> 00:51:58,080
to do because it's so scary I think

1317
00:52:01,820 --> 00:52:00,540
whatever the evolutionary process is if

1318
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:01,830
we can understand that at a more

1319
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:04,800
fundamental level is universal and so

1320
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,570
you might understand the conditions I'm

1321
00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:08,160
under which you start that process

1322
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:10,470
origins of life but predicting where

1323
00:52:16,190 --> 00:52:13,250
that process is going is very difficult

1324
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:16,200
and so just to give you an example like

1325
00:52:22,850 --> 00:52:18,720
if we invent AI

1326
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:22,860
I mean we're heading there it's really

1327
00:52:26,570 --> 00:52:24,330
difficult for us to anticipate what's

1328
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:26,580
that what's that going to do because

1329
00:52:29,870 --> 00:52:28,170
there are so many possibilities that it

1330
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:29,880
actually can do predicting which one I

1331
00:52:33,410 --> 00:52:31,260
don't I don't actually think it's a

1332
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:33,420
statement that we we could predict ahead

1333
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:35,130
I think we can predict general trends

1334
00:52:44,450 --> 00:52:38,850
but not specifics that makes sense Jake

1335
00:52:47,660 --> 00:52:44,460
and Haque misra asks our stars alive all

1336
00:52:51,110 --> 00:52:47,670
right eyes a great question um not in my

1337
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:51,120
mind although so so this is where it

1338
00:52:53,930 --> 00:52:52,710
gets really murky so so people talk

1339
00:52:55,730 --> 00:52:53,940
about stars being alive because they

1340
00:52:58,940 --> 00:52:55,740
undergo an evolutionary process so you

1341
00:53:01,460 --> 00:52:58,950
have a star and it burns all its fuel

1342
00:53:02,990 --> 00:53:01,470
and it dies and it spreads new elements

1343
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:03,000
out into the universe and then if that

1344
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:04,290
enriches the next generation

1345
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:05,970
stars and might change their properties

1346
00:53:08,690 --> 00:53:07,200
and then that can happen again so it

1347
00:53:10,850 --> 00:53:08,700
looks like there's even an evolutionary

1348
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:10,860
inheritance there but I don't take an

1349
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:12,570
evolutionary definition of life I take

1350
00:53:19,580 --> 00:53:14,400
this kind of informational one and there

1351
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:19,590
seems to be no real information

1352
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:21,570
necessary for that process but that

1353
00:53:26,030 --> 00:53:24,720
being said I think this is one of the

1354
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:26,040
things that's sort of a gray area

1355
00:53:28,850 --> 00:53:27,510
because I think there are plenty of

1356
00:53:31,370 --> 00:53:28,860
things that are very close to being

1357
00:53:32,660 --> 00:53:31,380
alive or almost alive and that then

1358
00:53:34,220 --> 00:53:32,670
there are things that we qualify as

1359
00:53:36,260 --> 00:53:34,230
alive but I don't think that that

1360
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:36,270
boundary between those is is well

1361
00:53:40,190 --> 00:53:37,890
defined and I don't think that that's

1362
00:53:41,540 --> 00:53:40,200
because we don't have a good definition

1363
00:53:43,130 --> 00:53:41,550
for it I just think it's not a

1364
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:43,140
well-defined boundary because that's not

1365
00:53:45,770 --> 00:53:44,610
really the right question to ask the

1366
00:53:48,970 --> 00:53:45,780
question is to ask what are the

1367
00:53:51,290 --> 00:53:48,980
processes that drive increasing

1368
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:51,300
increasingly complex and rich

1369
00:53:58,130 --> 00:53:53,250
information processing structures in

1370
00:53:59,330 --> 00:53:58,140
nature and how do those arise and and if

1371
00:54:00,440 --> 00:53:59,340
you want to trace that process all the

1372
00:54:01,460 --> 00:54:00,450
way back to it through I guess you

1373
00:54:03,410 --> 00:54:01,470
better go all the way back to the Big

1374
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:03,420
Bang because it's it's a process that

1375
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:05,520
emerges from nature it's not a it's not

1376
00:54:10,010 --> 00:54:08,640
a hard boundary so I'm not saying the

1377
00:54:12,260 --> 00:54:10,020
original life was in the Big Bang I'm

1378
00:54:14,330 --> 00:54:12,270
just saying that like it's kind of a

1379
00:54:19,060 --> 00:54:14,340
it's it's a different way of thinking

1380
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:19,070
about the question all right nitin asks

1381
00:54:27,290 --> 00:54:21,930
what are your thoughts of DNA having a

1382
00:54:28,580 --> 00:54:27,300
more prevalent role in in computing yeah

1383
00:54:31,430 --> 00:54:28,590
I think it's super cool that people are

1384
00:54:32,690 --> 00:54:31,440
doing stuff with DNA computing I think I

1385
00:54:36,050 --> 00:54:32,700
mean it's just another piece of hardware

1386
00:54:37,610 --> 00:54:36,060
it's just a different one than what

1387
00:54:40,730 --> 00:54:37,620
we're used to thinking about so I don't

1388
00:54:43,580 --> 00:54:40,740
I don't think I don't think it's

1389
00:54:45,410 --> 00:54:43,590
necessarily like a major revolution and

1390
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:45,420
how we're thinking about computing or

1391
00:54:50,540 --> 00:54:47,370
anything like that but it is fun that we

1392
00:54:52,370 --> 00:54:50,550
can do computation and DNA and it might

1393
00:54:55,580 --> 00:54:52,380
be useful to like programming biological

1394
00:54:57,110 --> 00:54:55,590
systems technology no it's exciting to

1395
00:54:59,390 --> 00:54:57,120
pad the computation is taking for sure

1396
00:55:02,570 --> 00:54:59,400
so here's a question that all of us who

1397
00:55:11,420 --> 00:55:02,580
are fans of Firefly want to know is how

1398
00:55:12,860 --> 00:55:11,430
did you meet Nathan Fillion so we have

1399
00:55:14,330 --> 00:55:12,870
this awesome thing at ASU which is

1400
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:14,340
called the Center for science and the

1401
00:55:17,180 --> 00:55:16,290
imagination and they do all these kind

1402
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:17,190
of things with

1403
00:55:23,299 --> 00:55:21,450
and scientists and like trying to you

1404
00:55:26,150 --> 00:55:23,309
know get science fiction to talk to

1405
00:55:29,059 --> 00:55:26,160
science fact and so they were having a

1406
00:55:31,579 --> 00:55:29,069
panel with Nathan Fillion because he is

1407
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:31,589
a friend of affiliate of the center and

1408
00:55:36,319 --> 00:55:33,930
and they were looking for scientists to

1409
00:55:38,450 --> 00:55:36,329
be on it and so they asked me and that

1410
00:55:40,730 --> 00:55:38,460
was really fun it was a very lively

1411
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:40,740
conversation with a few scientists and

1412
00:55:49,130 --> 00:55:44,730
even and it was it was fun I had a good

1413
00:56:01,279 --> 00:55:49,140
name yes tumblr does use into show I'm

1414
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:01,289
just kidding yeah is a very dynamic and

1415
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:02,910
charismatic personality so he's very

1416
00:56:08,299 --> 00:56:04,530
good at like engaging the audience which

1417
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:08,309
I thought was cool yeah wonderful well

1418
00:56:11,809 --> 00:56:10,079
sorry we at the top of the hour just

1419
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:11,819
want to say thank you so much for taking

1420
00:56:15,500 --> 00:56:13,410
the time to chat with us today I know

1421
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:15,510
you're super busy it was absolutely

1422
00:56:20,029 --> 00:56:18,480
wonderful to have you thanks so much I

1423
00:56:21,109 --> 00:56:20,039
was really happy to be here and so

1424
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:21,119
excited to get a little wonderful

1425
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:23,490
question for those of you are watching

1426
00:56:27,289 --> 00:56:25,440
catch us next month for askin

1427
00:56:28,430 --> 00:56:27,299
astrobiologists again look at that

1428
00:56:30,559 --> 00:56:28,440
background because that's gonna be a

1429
00:56:33,230 --> 00:56:30,569
question for next month's episode and

1430
00:56:35,130 --> 00:56:33,240
until then stay curious do take care bye